Open Surge Forum

A fun 2D retro platformer inspired by Sonic games and a game creation system

You are not logged in.

Announcement

Our community has moved to Discord! https://discord.gg/w8JqM7m

#76 2012-04-14 12:39:27

S32X
Member
From: Rochester, New York
Registered: 2012-03-18
Posts: 880
Website

Re: Sunshine Paradise SVG Concepts

you mean like the "shock_player" decorator?

Offline

#77 2012-04-14 16:39:46

Alexandre
Administrator
From: Brazil
Registered: 2009-01-27
Posts: 3,300
Website

Re: Sunshine Paradise SVG Concepts

all ideas are welcome, but please remember that the first boss must not be too hard... tongue

one can't assume the player will be experienced.

Offline

#78 2012-04-14 19:54:29

Sugarmaster
Member
From: Barcelona, Spain
Registered: 2011-04-26
Posts: 132
Website

Re: Sunshine Paradise SVG Concepts

Alex, one thing is inexperienced and other thing is playing with half-brain.

If they dont even know how to spindash or open a door to enter with other character they just have to find the way (there are only 4 directions and 2 buttons...)

I know we are creating the game for all kind of publics but if you are playing a sonic clone you have to know what to expect.

Anyway, the tutorial should have started with "how to spindash" for example and not letting the player go on until spindash is completed.

Sonic bosses arent too hard but if you make em too easy there will be just no challenge for the player
Even so, dificulty must be progressive from stage to stage, bosses included.


"The true master is always learning"
Avatar by Raul Sama.

Offline

#79 2012-04-14 20:48:43

Alexandre
Administrator
From: Brazil
Registered: 2009-01-27
Posts: 3,300
Website

Re: Sunshine Paradise SVG Concepts

Sugarmaster wrote:

Alex, one thing is inexperienced and other thing is playing with half-brain.

It's tempting to think that users are 'stupid'. Many hackers think that. In reality, however, what we have is a design problem. It's our fault, not user's.

Sugarmaster wrote:

If they dont even know how to spindash or open a door to enter with other character they just have to find the way (there are only 4 directions and 2 buttons...)

I've watched in real life people play it, and surprisingly, many of them got stuck in the same things. This has to mean something.

It's of common knowledge that most users won't read instructions. The video proves that. Instead of fighting this fact, we should embrace it. If we don't, the result is unhappy/enraged users, who will never bother playing again.

Sugarmaster wrote:

Sonic bosses arent too hard but if you make em too easy there will be just no challenge for the player
Even so, dificulty must be progressive from stage to stage, bosses included.

I completely agree. wink It has to be challenging. Challenging for who...?

It's easy to design something 'cool' for ourselves, but we have to think who our users are in the first place. Due to the open source nature of this project, I suspect many of them won't be die-hard sonic fans. We can't expect users to be skilled right in the first boss.

The first boss has to be easy to defeat. Not excessively easy, but it must be easy nonetheless. Difficulty progresses from stage to stage, as you said.

Offline

#80 2012-04-14 21:36:17

svgmovement
Member
Registered: 2011-11-24
Posts: 209

Re: Sunshine Paradise SVG Concepts

Hey Alexandre and Sugarmaster,

I agree with Alexandre, in that the issue is a design problem and not a user problem. However, I disagree with the approach to the design problem. The first boss shouldn’t be about making a challenge vs. not making a challenge. Instead the focus should be on making a comprehensive boss, one that covers the skills of the player without expecting anything beyond that.

As such the first boss should cover the skills that the player will have learned in Sunshine Paradise acts 1 and 2 and nothing more. In other words, if the player doesn’t know it yet, don’t put it in a boss.

The problem in the video Alexandre linked to in post  #77 is that the player did not know how running on walls worked, and even if they had tried to play the tutorial, they may not have figured it out. (The tutorial never explicitly explains loops or running up walls, and the 180 degree curve (with wall) shown in Blue Ocean never appears in the tutorial. sad )

As for those who already know classic Sonic, the way to not insult them
is to show them what they should know in each level, rather than tell
them. By doing so, you give them a way to adjust their playing style to
Open Surge, without giving them the impression that their too dumb to read
the signs.

I hope my input helps with the first boss. smile


-- svgmovement

Offline

#81 2012-04-14 21:39:41

Alexandre
Administrator
From: Brazil
Registered: 2009-01-27
Posts: 3,300
Website

Re: Sunshine Paradise SVG Concepts

svgmovement wrote:

Hey Alexandre and Sugarmaster,

I agree with Alexandre, in that the issue is a design problem and not a user problem. However, I disagree with the approach to the design problem. The first boss shouldn’t be about making a challenge vs. not making a challenge. Instead the focus should be on making a comprehensive boss, one that covers the skills of the player without expecting anything beyond that.

As such the first boss should cover the skills that the player will have learned in Sunshine Paradise acts 1 and 2 and nothing more. In other words, if the player doesn’t know it yet, don’t put it in a boss.

The problem in the video Alexandre linked to in post  #77 is that the player did not know how running on walls worked, and even if they had tried to play the tutorial, they may not have figured it out. (The tutorial never explicitly explains loops or running up walls, and the 180 degree curve (with wall) shown in Blue Ocean never appears in the tutorial. sad )

As for those who already know classic Sonic, the way to not insult them
is to show them what they should know in each level, rather than tell
them. By doing so, you give them a way to adjust their playing style to
Open Surge, without giving them the impression that their too dumb to read
the signs.

I hope my input helps with the first boss. smile

Excellent post.

Offline

#82 2012-04-17 13:16:49

KZR
Member
Registered: 2010-07-14
Posts: 1,447
Website

Re: Sunshine Paradise SVG Concepts

I'd like to suggest an idea i got with the Awesome Possum encounter:

In each level, there could be a secret encounter with a special character. Once encountered, this character would give whoever found him/her a permanent special ability.

With this, level 1 would inevitably give Surge the power to run on water, and give Neon the jetpack, respectively.

From then on, they become really secrets, and instead of 1 per act, they are 1 per level.

The abilities acquired, and who acquired them, would then play a decisive role in the paths the player can take to beat later levels. Of course there would always be a path for the default abilities, for those who didn't find any secrets, but that path would most likely be the hardest.


SD_sml.pngSeD_sml.pngLTot_W_sml.png
https://discord.gg/w8JqM7m ---> Open Surge's Discord server

Offline

#83 2012-04-18 00:42:37

Alexandre
Administrator
From: Brazil
Registered: 2009-01-27
Posts: 3,300
Website

Re: Sunshine Paradise SVG Concepts

Nice idea, KZR, although IMHO one ability per level is quite a lot. I'm not sure we can fit so many into the game. There are 11 levels before Sky Brawl, which gives an average of almost 4 abilities per character. Charge doesn't show up until the 4th level. We surely would like Surge to get more powerful abilities in the last levels of the game...

but.

what if Awesome Opossum gives you an special item (a key, a gem, a mask, or something else) that could be traded later in the game? It could be traded for some other item, or maybe for the ability itself. If we have just two (or not more than 3) secret abilities per character, that is much more feasible in my opinion.

Here we have it: the RPG elements we were looking so far.

thoughts?

Offline

#84 2012-04-18 00:50:13

SurgeChris
Member
From: Surabaya, Indonesia
Registered: 2010-04-25
Posts: 401

Re: Sunshine Paradise SVG Concepts

KZR wrote:

I'd like to suggest an idea i got with the Awesome Possum encounter

In each level, there could be a secret encounter with a special character. Once encountered, this character would give whoever found him/her a permanent special ability.

With this, level 1 would inevitably give Surge the power to run on water, and give Neon the jetpack, respectively.

From then on, they become really secrets, and instead of 1 per act, they are 1 per level.

The abilities acquired, and who acquired them, would then play a decisive role in the paths the player can take to beat later levels. Of course there would always be a path for the default abilities, for those who didn't find any secrets, but that path would most likely be the hardest.

I do agree with this idea. However, the game has 10 or so levels, and 10 upgrades are crazy for one character. What if an upgrade is only given to the character who encounters the secret character?

EDIT: 3 upgrades per character. How's that? And when upgrades are maxed, secret character recommends another player to meet him/her.

Last edited by SurgeChris (2012-04-18 11:12:14)


Your teacher asks you. What to answer? Say this:
"I thought the teacher is supposed to know."

Offline

#85 2012-04-18 00:58:38

Alexandre
Administrator
From: Brazil
Registered: 2009-01-27
Posts: 3,300
Website

Re: Sunshine Paradise SVG Concepts

SurgeChris wrote:

I do agree with this idea. However, the game has 15 or so levels, and 15 upgrades are crazy for one character. What if an upgrade is only given to the character who encounters the secret character?

15 levels?

not every level is good for having secret characters in there. Sky Brawl is an example: it's a battle-only level. You also can't count the bonus stages, for example.

http://opensnc.sourceforge.net/wiki/ind … ent#Levels

Still, this number of abilities is waaaaay over the top. But the idea of upgrading the character is very cool.

Offline

#86 2012-04-18 11:41:03

KZR
Member
Registered: 2010-07-14
Posts: 1,447
Website

Re: Sunshine Paradise SVG Concepts

ok maybe one every 4 levels? that would make 4 possible power ups.  I can think of a wall jump, a super spindash, gliding and probably a homing attack in last to help through the later levels.

At the end of each level, rings could be traded by items, the exact same items we can get from monitors (except rings and hazards of course). So aside from extra lives, theres another good reason to stock up on rings.

And I agree with the secret character idea. however it would require one of the characters to have ALL powerups, to enable him to make it through an extra level where the boss is such character. After beaten, joins the team.

Last edited by KZR (2012-04-18 11:43:51)


SD_sml.pngSeD_sml.pngLTot_W_sml.png
https://discord.gg/w8JqM7m ---> Open Surge's Discord server

Offline

#87 2012-04-19 00:41:12

Alexandre
Administrator
From: Brazil
Registered: 2009-01-27
Posts: 3,300
Website

Re: Sunshine Paradise SVG Concepts

less upgrades is a feasible thing.

A secret character? Cool. cool It's got to be a girl. We don't have any girls in the plot. smile

Offline

#88 2012-04-20 03:27:52

Redshrike
Member
Registered: 2010-09-11
Posts: 49

Re: Sunshine Paradise SVG Concepts

On a general note, I worry that some of the creature concepts are kind of... nondescript.  It's not that they're bad, per se, but they're not terribly distinctive either.  Something like the spring fling is a welcome exception: it is original and stands out.  But take the grey fish: it's... a grey fish.  Pretty much as straightforward a take on the concept as you can get.  Unique enemies are pretty important for getting atmosphere for the game.  Take, say, Sonic's Chopper or Mario's Cheep-Cheep.  Or Catterkiller, for that matter (everyone loves catterkiller!)  I'm not meaning to complain or anything, I just think it's important and easier to address early.

Offline

#89 2012-04-20 18:33:41

wrath1138
Member
Registered: 2010-03-02
Posts: 119

Re: Sunshine Paradise SVG Concepts

Hello everyone,

I discussed with alex earlier some new ideas, mostly going around the fact that we are not utilizing the foreground and background to its full potential, and we hardly portray what the concept art depicted as a goal for Sunshine Paradise.

Here are some examples/ideas:

s006-1.png

- Palmtrees in foreground, as well as more foliage in the screens.

s008-2.png

s021.png

s019-2.png

=========================

Areas like the one below, parts underground, could benefit from darker sprites, and maybe some foreground ones to simulate sun rays going inside the caves of Sunshine Paradise.

s022-2.png

=========================

Barrels for fishes in act 1, could show to the player that they shoot things upward by shooting the fish that attack you upwards.

s014-1.png

=========================

Another discussion point was the building of structures/sprites, according to the level design. A slope or incline such as the one pictured below, do not work properly and does not make for a smooth ride to the big slope.

s015.png
s017-4.png
s016-2.png
s018-4.png

Offline

#90 2012-04-20 19:50:17

svgmovement
Member
Registered: 2011-11-24
Posts: 209

Re: Sunshine Paradise SVG Concepts

Redshrike wrote:

On a general note, I worry that some of the creature concepts are kind of... nondescript.  It's not that they're bad, per se, but they're not terribly distinctive either.  Something like the spring fling is a welcome exception: it is original and stands out.
...
  I'm not meaning to complain or anything, I just think it's important and easier to address early.

Hey Redshrike,
I am glad that you wanted to address this early, because you are right:
If Open Surge is going to stand out as its own game, it needs
original, creative, distinctive (to use your word) creature concepts.
And I was already aware of this, thinking ahead about how Waterworks
Zone as a whole will shine while working on Sunshine Paradise.

If you are worried about the enemies in Sunshine Paradise alone, feel free to
let me know and I will work on them. If you are worried about a trend, then
I encourage everyone to alert me to any "standard issue" concepts that
I come out with.

Thanks for your input.
=================================================

wrath1138 wrote:

Hello everyone,

I discussed with alex earlier some new ideas, mostly going around the fact that we are not utilizing the foreground and background to its full potential, and we hardly portray what the concept art depicted as a goal for Sunshine Paradise.

Here are some examples/ideas:
s006-1.png
...

Hey wrath1138,
These screenshots are amazing! I am happy to know
that you were able to use the concepts to enhance
the look and feel of Sunshine Paradise. The cutscene
may (or may not) need a foliage update too, to
match this. The fish in the barrels idea is great, to
introduce the player to the barrels before they have
to use them. Putting the "dark" in the dark cave areas
will certainly bring the wow effect for the first level.
You and Alexandre have come up with some
great ideas.
Even more, I am sure this will be an
excellent game overall.

Thanks for your ongoing contributions.


-- svgmovement

Offline

#91 2012-04-20 19:55:51

S32X
Member
From: Rochester, New York
Registered: 2012-03-18
Posts: 880
Website

Re: Sunshine Paradise SVG Concepts

Whoa!!! The new Sunshine Paradise brickset is AWESOME!! Make's me fell I'm actually in a paradise.

Offline

#92 2012-04-20 22:00:34

Sugarmaster
Member
From: Barcelona, Spain
Registered: 2011-04-26
Posts: 132
Website

Re: Sunshine Paradise SVG Concepts

I think the background palm tree is way out of style in comparison with the foreground one.

Substitute the background one with a modified version of the foreground one or just copy it in the background.


P.D: Foreground palm tree rocks XD. Good job.

Last edited by Sugarmaster (2012-04-20 22:01:12)


"The true master is always learning"
Avatar by Raul Sama.

Offline

#93 2012-04-21 00:01:56

SurgeChris
Member
From: Surabaya, Indonesia
Registered: 2010-04-25
Posts: 401

Re: Sunshine Paradise SVG Concepts

Sugarmaster wrote:

I think the background palm tree is way out of style in comparison with the foreground one.

Substitute the background one with a modified version of the foreground one or just copy it in the background.

True, lol. And the deal's more greens in Act II, right?

The rest are awesome, though. Any updates to the downloads?

Last edited by SurgeChris (2012-04-21 00:02:32)


Your teacher asks you. What to answer? Say this:
"I thought the teacher is supposed to know."

Offline

#94 2012-04-21 00:44:29

KZR
Member
Registered: 2010-07-14
Posts: 1,447
Website

Re: Sunshine Paradise SVG Concepts

Very good! I like how this is looking but i agree that the foreground tree looks weird.

Smooth slopes, i don't know if that's the problem, but here's a thing i found:

solids.png

those cannot be solid 0 degree or you'll inevitably touch them on your way up or down the slope and screw up the physics.


SD_sml.pngSeD_sml.pngLTot_W_sml.png
https://discord.gg/w8JqM7m ---> Open Surge's Discord server

Offline

#95 2012-04-21 01:58:53

S32X
Member
From: Rochester, New York
Registered: 2012-03-18
Posts: 880
Website

Re: Sunshine Paradise SVG Concepts

Hmm. Interesting. Maybe the top right corner is a separate brick though.

Offline

#96 2012-04-21 02:20:52

wrath1138
Member
Registered: 2010-03-02
Posts: 119

Re: Sunshine Paradise SVG Concepts

The art is clashing cause these images are presented more as a proof-of-concept and not as a final brickset. Enemies alongside some other art already in-game clashes with the design too.

As for the slopes, while some do have errors as they were put in the editor, there are some slopes that do not work as intended due to the current angles used in the brickset.

I'll post a test level map later so you can see what structures might be needed and more input can be put into it.

Offline

#97 2012-04-21 02:49:05

svgmovement
Member
Registered: 2011-11-24
Posts: 209

Re: Sunshine Paradise SVG Concepts

wrath1138 wrote:

The art is clashing cause these images are presented more as a proof-of-concept and not as a final brickset. Enemies alongside some other art already in-game clashes with the design too.
...

Does this mean I should redo the concepts for those other
enemies?


-- svgmovement

Offline

#98 2012-04-21 03:01:48

wrath1138
Member
Registered: 2010-03-02
Posts: 119

Re: Sunshine Paradise SVG Concepts

svgmovement wrote:
wrath1138 wrote:

The art is clashing cause these images are presented more as a proof-of-concept and not as a final brickset. Enemies alongside some other art already in-game clashes with the design too.
...

Does this mean I should redo the concepts for those other
enemies?

Well, since the stuff I added is "borrowed" maybe when the bricksets are more polished and the foliage added, it will all fit in properly. Alex had some ideas for this too, we should ask him more in depth to this. I think he mentioned it since I used lady bugsy on my test, and that is kinda 3D-ish and then we have mostly 2D art for everything else.

Offline

#99 2012-04-21 12:30:13

Sugarmaster
Member
From: Barcelona, Spain
Registered: 2011-04-26
Posts: 132
Website

Re: Sunshine Paradise SVG Concepts

wrath1138 wrote:
svgmovement wrote:
wrath1138 wrote:

The art is clashing cause these images are presented more as a proof-of-concept and not as a final brickset. Enemies alongside some other art already in-game clashes with the design too.
...

Does this mean I should redo the concepts for those other
enemies?

Well, since the stuff I added is "borrowed" maybe when the bricksets are more polished and the foliage added, it will all fit in properly. Alex had some ideas for this too, we should ask him more in depth to this. I think he mentioned it since I used lady bugsy on my test, and that is kinda 3D-ish and then we have mostly 2D art for everything else.

You people are doing a great job, I was just implying that the art for the level should be consistent, I know they are just concept now because art for the level is not finished but it is still looking good. Keep up the good work team Surge!

Last edited by Sugarmaster (2012-04-21 12:30:25)


"The true master is always learning"
Avatar by Raul Sama.

Offline

#100 2012-04-22 16:09:51

Alexandre
Administrator
From: Brazil
Registered: 2009-01-27
Posts: 3,300
Website

Re: Sunshine Paradise SVG Concepts

Redshrike wrote:

But take the grey fish: it's... a grey fish.  Pretty much as straightforward a take on the concept as you can get.  Unique enemies are pretty important for getting atmosphere for the game.  Take, say, Sonic's Chopper or Mario's Cheep-Cheep.  Or Catterkiller, for that matter (everyone loves catterkiller!)  I'm not meaning to complain or anything, I just think it's important and easier to address early.

I agree with you, Redshrike.

I don't know if you have the time to do it, but for the enemies get improved, someone has to work on their sprites. Based on previous works, I know that you are an excellent spriter.

svgmovement wrote:

Does this mean I should redo the concepts for those other
enemies?

The enemies listed on the wiki were supposed to be 'final' as they are now. However, Redshrike and you have raised the enemy 'uniqueness' issue. If you guys want to improve some enemies, both their concepts and their sprites, please feel free to do so. You don't need anyone's permission to post a better fish in here, for example. smile

Let's get started. svgmovement, would you please post an improved concept for the gray fish? Redshrike, would you work on improving the current sprite of the fish, based on svg's new concept? smile

wrath wrote:

As for the slopes, while some do have errors as they were put in the editor, there are some slopes that do not work as intended due to the current angles used in the brickset.

I discussed the issue with wrath, and the current brickset needs to be remade (not the art, just the .brk script). When building the level, wrath comes up with many innovative structures that were not predicted when designing the brickset. This results in clumsy physics.

wrath is working on a .png based on the art of the current brickset and containing the needed structures. We'll then create a smarter brickset from that, rather than working with generic bricksets.

Offline

Board footer

Powered by FluxBB  hosted by tuxfamily.org