Dark Forest Prototype WIP (prev. Sunshine Paradise Prototype)

KZR · 2010-10-12 15:52:16

Alexandre wrote:

I totally agree. We do not want legal issues for Open Surge.

Neither do I. I'm being very careful in this matter. it would be a shame to have the project in court because of careless usage of ripped stuff.
I have posted my sources here: http://opensnc.sourceforge.net/forum/vi … php?id=599
anyone can check how legal are the sprites and bricks i'm using.

Alexandre wrote:

Cool, but let's not forget the game story. In the beginning of black forest, surge starts by himself. Black Forest is the place where Charge is being held captive

so maybe a pushable block could trigger a switch. is this possible?

also, we can change that later when such gameplay changes take effect. this level can't be completed without teamwork at this moment

Alexandre · 2010-10-12 15:53:06

SilverstepP wrote:

Well, it shouldn't be hard to modify it, right?

the game story or the level?

I think the levels should respect the game story, not the opposite.

KZR wrote:

I have posted my sources here: http://opensnc.sourceforge.net/forum/vi … php?id=599
anyone can check how legal are the sprites and bricks i'm using.

We mean, every asset must be credited individually. Take 0.1.4's musics/readme.txt for example. Every musician has been credited accordingly.

KZR wrote:

so maybe a pushable block could trigger a switch. is this possible?

Sure. Perhaps one could adapt the pushable block posted in the custom objects area?

KZR · 2010-10-12 16:39:35

i had another idea. since the cannon is not necessary to finish the level, is could possible to play the game again with all 3 chars after beating the game 1 or more times. that would open up new puzzles and increase re-playability value.

regarding author's credits, i know exactly who did what, what can go in and what has to be changed before final release. Don't worry. i love Open Surge as much as you do

SilverstepP · 2010-10-12 17:33:49

Alexandre wrote:

SilverstepP wrote:
Well, it shouldn't be hard to modify it, right?
the game story or the level?

I meant the level. xD

Alexandre · 2010-10-12 17:38:27

KZR wrote:

i had another idea. since the cannon is not necessary to finish the level, is could possible to play the game again with all 3 chars after beating the game 1 or more times. that would open up new puzzles and increase re-playability value.

I love it, but then every level should have this re-playability value.

KZR · 2010-10-12 18:48:58

Alexandre wrote:

I love it, but then every level should have this re-playability value.

Well, why not?

So here's what everyone has been waiting for. This first set is far from perfect but gets you a nice ready-to-go Level structure, plus new enemies. i only placed 2 or 3. the rest will be added later. i just want everyone to walk around and see what can be done.
As promised, and by popular demand, here it is:

Dark Forest Prototype V1

http://www.fileden.com/files/2007/6/4/1 … 0Proto.zip

more to come, stay tuned

ssdw · 2010-10-12 19:15:23

basic_pipi_systeem.png is missing

Edit: and there missing seesaw.spr

Edit 2: okey, the sprite of "pushable block" is also missing Can you upload a full version? please?

Last edited by ssdw (2010-10-12 19:24:21)

KZR · 2010-10-12 20:07:48

ssdw wrote:

basic_pipi_systeem.png is missing
Edit: and there missing seesaw.spr
Edit 2: okey, the sprite of "pushable block" is also missing Can you upload a full version? please?

I'm sorry i had a bit of a problem here. I SHOULD HAVE TESTED EVERYTHING ON A CLEAN INSTALL :X

the package is now correct. try the link again

ssdw · 2010-10-12 20:08:43

I could not wait, so I searched all files that were missing.
I have a question: is This the first level of open surge?

I played the level, he is great
I love the music, and you have with the rain nicely done!
but the first enemy (wolf), I don't like it. it is too stiff or something, I don't know what it is.
I think that in the future may be a little more enemy's.
the "pushable block" does not fit at this level, the design is wrong in this theme.
I did have troubles with finding the ends, maby signs are useful.
about the wooden bridge, how about this: if the player on the bridge, go down a little. this gives a nice effect.
I found 1 bug at loop 2792,7688. this does not work.
how I tried with Sonic, I did not come up.

I think this seriously, that this is one of the best levels of open sonic!

KZR · 2010-10-12 20:27:17

thank you for testing and commenting. I believe that this is open Surge's first level (not level 1, i mean the 1st to be done), however i don't know if that's true.

ssdw wrote:

but the first enemy (wolf), I don't like it. it is too stiff or something, I don't know what it is.

the wolf looks like a mummy with tendinitis lol. enemies are very rough at the moment. they are just for flavor

ssdw wrote:

the "pushable block" does not fit at this level, the design is wrong in this theme.

that one is on TODO list. it's not top priority since there is only 1 in the whole level. thanks for pointing out.

ssdw wrote:

I did have troubles with finding the ends, maby signs are useful.

i'm not a fan of signs, i prefer open exploration. let's see what others have to say about this.

ssdw wrote:

about the wooden bridge, how about this: if the player on the bridge, go down a little. this gives a nice effect.

then i would have to make the bridge as an object, since bricks don't bend.

Alexandre · 2010-10-13 02:24:55

wow, this is so nice! what song is this?

ssdw wrote:

I think this seriously, that this is one of the best levels of open sonic!

agree'd

the level is immersive, and that's great for a game.

the prototype is very good, although it has plenty of bugs (specially in the loops).

the credits file is very good!

rather than making a long list explaining how cool this level is (because it is), I prefer to do some criticism (so it can be improved even further) - hope you don't mind

- many loop objects are misplaced. If you put a yellow loop object anywhere in your level, you must make sure the player touches a corresponding red loop object shortly after. In some places there are open yellow objects, leading to bugs.

- I agree with ssdw, the level is too hard. I couldn't find my way out of it after playing for many minutes. Some indication would be great.

- If you get two slopes (or a slope and a wall) overlapping each other, there's a chance things will glitch out. The reason why the loop in the template level works is because bricks do not overlap. I'll see how it can be improved for the next physics system, but for now, if two bricks occupy the same space, the engine may not know which one to pick.

- It focuses too much on team work and we don't have a complete team in black forest zone. So, there should be a clear, simple path for a single player, and then a more open path (in terms of exploration) for a complete team, as you had suggested

- "9" and "6" loops should be made using those small yellow square loop objects, like in exotic paradise.

- having rain drops is a great idea, and this should be kept. however, it's implementation should be improved. not only it falls too slowly, but if you use neon to fly around (moving right), it will appear that you're in a zero gravity condition.

- it's frustrating when you're in an advanced part of the level, and then you fall down accidentally and go back to the beginning...

- that green layer in the background doesn't feel right

KZR · 2010-10-13 03:55:52

Thanks

The song was composed by myself in 2006. and because of that number i found that i shipped the wrong version. There's an updated version less than one year old if you follow the link in my signature. the song is called "not coming back". I also have a more house-like version but i thought it wouldn't fit the same way.

Alexandre wrote:

the prototype is very good, although it has plenty of bugs (specially in the loops).

ah, loops. love to build them, hate to fix them. gotta keep practicing... however those bugs are mostly caused by my attempts to have them look clean instead of broken, and probably some remains from the placement related to the brickset i had before those loop parts were created. i'm not satisfied with them yet.

Alexandre wrote:

- many loop objects are misplaced. If you put a yellow loop object anywhere in your level, you must make sure the player touches a corresponding red loop object shortly after. In some places there are open yellow objects, leading to bugs.

i still find it sometimes hard to understand the logic behind loop objects, even though i have studied all tutorials to the end, upside down and across. sometimes a loop object pointing right would "open" the wall to its left. that is a must-revise for next release.

Alexandre wrote:

- I agree with ssdw, the level is too hard. I couldn't find my way out of it after playing for many minutes. Some indication would be great.

that's why there are no signs. yet. there are some custom signs planned for next release. but i wanted to see how someone that doesn't know the level would get through.

Alexandre wrote:

- It focuses too much on team work and we don't have a complete team in black forest zone. So, there should be a clear, simple path for a single player, and then a more open path (in terms of exploration) for a complete team, as you had suggested smile

True. I wanted to test as many teamwork puzzles as possible. currently only Tails <ahem> Neon can finish the level without any help except for the door that has a seesaw right next to it. speedrun took 1:30, but someone not knowing the way takes more than 5-10 minutes. i'm going to scratch most of those puzzles and keep some only for second runs with the full team.

Everything else you said is pretty much true.

Ah, yes:

Alexandre wrote:

rather than making a long list explaining how cool this level is (because it is), I prefer to do some criticism (so it can be improved even further) - hope you don't mind

things like "oh wow" "cool" awesome" - are good for morale, but none of them motivates me to improve. a nice critique with well explained whys and why nots like yours just fuels me to keep going

It took me literally more than a week, working many hours a day to have this ready. what was initially curious tinkering led me to my first serious level project, and in cases like this, good critiques are worth more than 1000 thanks wows cools and stuff like that

Alexandre · 2010-10-13 13:44:49

KZR wrote:

ah, loops. love to build them, hate to fix them. gotta keep practicing... however those bugs are mostly caused by my attempts to have them look clean instead of broken, and probably some remains from the placement related to the brickset i had before those loop parts were created. i'm not satisfied with them yet.

loops are pretty simple if you follow a simple recipe:

- forget about aligning bricks. Make your loop in an image creation program.
- once you have the loop image ready, create the brickset
- create a group of bricks
- to put loops in your level, use the groups. forget about aligning bricks.

that way the loops will work perfectly, with no bugs.

KZR · 2010-10-13 17:26:35

thank you once again for sharing your wisdom

Is this a sign?

yes, it is. one of many i must say. since people not familiar with the level tend to get lost easily. this is just the welcome sign, the beginning of my sign placing journey

also this is a sign that work on this level will be halted for a few days. the reasons are simple. to rest, to catch some fresh air, and to get inspired on more new stuff if you'd like to pick it up and do something, please do it, and share with us

@ssdw - I found the loop you mentioned. pretty darn frustrating since the upper part is a Knuckles-only area. All loops will be rebuilt the way Alexandre specified. after my break on this, though.

Last edited by KZR (2010-10-13 17:29:53)

ssdw · 2010-10-13 19:20:25

that looks good
maby it is nice when the sign looks old and fade, like very long time nobody was there.
but this is a detail.

Enjoy your break!

wrath1138 · 2010-10-14 19:09:57

Hello! yes I'm alive.

Sorry I haven't been able to connect here as much. SilverstepP kept me informed on this a little bit, sorry I wasn't able to personally reply sooner. My speedpads can be used. You can leave a credit in the .obj file and image.

As for Suns-- Dark Forest, its looking awesome! I'll give a try as soon as possible.
As for Sunshine Paradise I've had a draft for it that I haven't been able to post. I'll post it later tonight.

jobromedia · 2010-10-14 20:19:48

After drooling over the screenies I just got two words to say: Most impressive!

Alexandre · 2010-10-15 14:23:40

i love that "everybody enters, nobody leaves"

wrath1138 wrote:

My speedpads can be used. You can leave a credit in the .obj file and image.

wrath, are the speedpads ripped or did you draw them?

KZR · 2010-10-15 16:03:20

can someone help me? i have been making changes in the background image & script and i came across a problem i believe SilverstepP also had some time ago.

if i don't specify zindex on each layer they are drawn by their order in the script. first layer on the bottom, last on top.

but, if i specify zindex on each layer, one of them disappears. this usually happens when one is set to repeat x and y.

for instance:

2 bg layers with zindex 1 show ok, in front of player.

1st layer (just a repeated black square) shows ok, behind
layer 2, sky and clouds
layer 3, some mountains, also shows
then layer 4, forest is nowhere to be found.

even if i specify, say, z=0.4 on this one and z=0.3 for the previous and set the same start point, only the mountains show.

i once had this problem where a layer repeating x and y covered the others.

it also happens if i have only the two front layers with z=1 and son't specify zindex on any other.

if i post the files can someone please see what am i doing wrong? zindex on backgrounds is not documented yet, or at least i didn't find any info.

what am i doing wrong?

EDIT: Never mind, apparently initial_position and scroll_speed are linked in a way i didn't understand, and is not documented. apparently scroll_speed acts as a multiplier increasing or decreasing the layer's position X pixels where X is current camera position*scroll_speed. i'm not sure the formula is this but seems to work for me

So, let's celebrate the new background

http://www.fileden.com/files/2007/6/4/1 … t%20BG.zip

curiously enough, what inspired me was a power surge derived from the bad weather. hehe there are amazing things

Last edited by KZR (2010-10-15 20:01:08)

Alexandre · 2010-10-16 00:27:41

the backgrounds tutorial has been updated. hope it helps.

The new background of the level is awesome. Those thunders are really good. Pretty immersive stuff.

jobromedia · 2010-10-16 05:56:11

Congratulations on a really nice level.

Regarding snake enemies. The best way to create them (my own experience) is to have the enemy generate another child object at the end of it. Say you want a silversnake. All you really need is:

* The head sprite
* The body sprite (silvery balls)

When ever you want to move the enemy then create a new body ball. A on_timeout determines how fast the objects will be created, a larger value for a more shelled look, shorter for a more smoother look. Another on_timeout then determines how long the ball will exist before it is being removed, and hence controls the length of the snake. It makes a pretty glittery appearance as well.

KZR · 2010-10-16 15:54:15

Jobromedia that's a very good idea. just like Sonic's very own caterkiller, or Snake Rattle and Roll

too bad i suck at scripting objects... so far i only edit, and badly xD maybe you wanna help?

that gives me an idea for a boss:

A giant snake made of 8 balls with the size of the player
The snake stands on the left and spits venom to the right and then moves to the right and vice-versa
once in a while it bites, if the player is standing close to it.
if hit by venom, ring count slowly decreases. if =<0 player dies
if hit by bite, player loses all rings (just like normal enemies)
the snake can't be attacked head-on, unless for the last hit, because the purpose is to destroy the balls until only the head is left.

This way act 2 shouldn't feel like a walk in the forest, but rather like a battle to release Charge

SilverstepP · 2010-10-16 16:40:13

KZR wrote:

A giant snake made of 8 balls with the size of the player
The snake stands on the left and spits venom to the right and then moves to the right and vice-versa
once in a while it bites, if the player is standing close to it.
if hit by venom, ring count slowly decreases. if =<0 player dies
if hit by bite, player loses all rings (just like normal enemies)
the snake can't be attacked head-on, unless for the last hit, because the purpose is to destroy the balls until only the head is left.

Oh yes! I like this! I may try to make it.

Charge is freed after act 1. But, it could be that the snake was his 'prison guard' and was away when you freed Charge and now wants to recapture him.

How about spicing it up?

-A giant snake made of 8 balls the size of the player
-The snake stands on the left and spits venom to the right and moves to the right and vice-versa.
-It bites if the player is in front of it, leaving it's head open to attack if it misses.
-If hit by venom, ring count slowly decreases and x-plane movement is disabled for 5 seconds so you can dodge boss attacks but not as easily (and this is possible, I have done it before) But making it so the player dies when it's 0 isn't possible quite yet. Maybe 'on_no_rings' as a new command would allow gradual ring drains to work properly.
-If hit by bite, you lose your rings normally OR it could be a grab attack to prevent you from getting the rings for a bit (also doable, except you can't escape from it if you're caught due to a lack of 'on_player_jump'). As a side effect for it's destruction, it's easily dodged and is how you hit the boss.
-The snake can be attacked head-on, but only when he tries to bite you... the segments are lost one by one as you hit the head. The reason I do this is because it's hard to get 8 objects communicating with eachother efficiently and I can always work animation wonder to make it look like he loses segments one by one.

Alternative attacks it could have-
-Constriction that gets weaker as the boss loses segments (for obvious reasons)
-Spray a pool of poison that lingers for a while that must be jumped over.
-On the last hit, it could have a 'panic' attack that involves rolling or something because as a head alone you don't have many ways to move around and bite things.

Give me some artwork and I'll make all this happen. I just need the snake's art. The projectiles, pools, and other stuff I can make.

KZR · 2010-10-16 17:26:23

nice let me grab my pencil and you'll have a snake today.

i like the idea of hitting it on the head after it tries to bite.
don't constrain movements, though. this is level 2-1, it may be too hard for beginners.
also, acid works almost the same as this poison we're discussing, so maybe the acid shield could come into play.
panic attack could be the head moving around on the ground trying to bite you until you put it out of its misery

also 2 attacks for a boss should be enough at this point of the game, with higher level bosses having a wider selection of attacks, thus raising the challenge as the game progresses. this boss already has close range and long range attacks, and until it's tested, we don't know how much of a strain this can be on the players, so maybe it's better to start with the basics.

another idea - the tail segment has a rattle. it's a good idea to have it disappear last, just before the head. when one ball is removed it attaches to the last ball in line, if no balls left, it attaches to the head. the last to stand is the head, so it gets destroyed immediately before the head.

EDIT:

Download link updated with most recent version and data files.
There were many changes, screenies will explain better:

Give me a sign
people asked, i delivered. there are 4 kinds: the welcome sign, the "don't feed" sign, and the generic sign. the 4th kind is the directional, pointing you the way to the exit. also they now look more old and weathered.

Big mean Spiders need big mean cobwebs
Truly. also notice how the pushable has changed graphic. it is now independent from Alexandre's pushable block and does not ask you if you want to push it. You HAVE to push it

Talk to me, let's have a dialog (box)
All dialogs are triggered by an object. since the dialog triggers are only visible in the editor, they all have the same icon.
The dialogs read messages on generic signs and give storyline or level related messages

Level layout has changed!
screenies on this are a no-no. it would be a spoiler The level was changed to reflect the storyline, to have a clear Surge-only path, and many teamwork puzzles with big rewards. Most loops are still buggy, even though they work if you cross them with a certain speed. there is no more "teleporting" to the tops or the sides, brick placements have been corrected to prevent it.

so here's the link. it's the same as the previous, but i bet you don't wanna scroll back

http://www.fileden.com/files/2007/6/4/1 … 0Proto.zip

Last edited by KZR (2010-10-16 18:41:47)

SilverstepP · 2010-10-16 18:57:15

KZR wrote:

nice let me grab my pencil and you'll have a snake today.
i like the idea of hitting it on the head after it tries to bite.
don't constrain movements, though. this is level 2-1, it may be too hard for beginners.

Nope, it's level 4-1.

KZR wrote:

also, acid works almost the same as this poison we're discussing, so maybe the acid shield could come into play.
panic attack could be the head moving around on the ground trying to bite you until you put it out of its misery

This could be done.

KZR wrote:

also 2 attacks for a boss should be enough at this point of the game, with higher level bosses having a wider selection of attacks, thus raising the challenge as the game progresses. this boss already has close range and long range attacks, and until it's tested, we don't know how much of a strain this can be on the players, so maybe it's better to start with the basics.

Not necessarily. Bosses with a wide variety of attacks can be done in the beginning. They just have to be easily avoidable. I'm doing this with my quest.

Nonetheless, how about the acid pool and the venom shot get combined into one attack? The pool takes away rings gradually as you stand in it.

Constriction? Eh, maybe not, now that I think about it. No way to escape, like I said, since there's no 'on_player_jump'. That could be too hard.

KZR wrote:

another idea - the tail segment has a rattle. it's a good idea to have it disappear last, just before the head. when one ball is removed it attaches to the last ball in line, if no balls left, it attaches to the head. the last to stand is the head, so it gets destroyed immediately before the head.

We can do this. If you draw it, I'll use it.

KZR wrote:

EDIT:
Download link updated with most recent version and data files.
There were many changes, screenies will explain better:
Give me a sign
people asked, i delivered. there are 4 kinds: the welcome sign, the "don't feed" sign, and the generic sign. the 4th kind is the directional, pointing you the way to the exit. also they now look more old and weathered.
Big mean Spiders need big mean cobwebs
Truly. also notice how the pushable has changed graphic. it is now independent from Alexandre's pushable block and does not ask you if you want to push it. You HAVE to push it
Talk to me, let's have a dialog (box)
All dialogs are triggered by an object. since the dialog triggers are only visible in the editor, they all have the same icon.
The dialogs read messages on generic signs and give storyline or level related messages

Surge and Charge don't technically know eachother yet at this point, but I get the idea. :-)

KZR wrote:

Level layout has changed!
screenies on this are a no-no. it would be a spoiler The level was changed to reflect the storyline, to have a clear Surge-only path, and many teamwork puzzles with big rewards. Most loops are still buggy, even though they work if you cross them with a certain speed. there is no more "teleporting" to the tops or the sides, brick placements have been corrected to prevent it.
so here's the link. it's the same as the previous, but i bet you don't wanna scroll back
http://www.fileden.com/files/2007/6/4/1 … 0Proto.zip

I like it. xD

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